I have long sought these subjects. My parents got divorced, and honestly, it wasn’t that big of a deal to me. …and I think i understand why now. But when friends assert some boundaries and shut the door, i can be devastated. why is this? well, I think I may have just found the answer.
You see…there’s a couple of fascinating facts here. Divorce rate soared at two points in American history: During the Great Depression, and again in the mid 80’s. Depression also soared at two times: during the great depression, and in the mid 80’s. The Great Depression has some very obvious reasons as to why the increase–in the case of divorce…marriage also soared…so naturally more marriages–more divorce…but what about the 80’s? You see when I discovered this…it all started to click. everything made sense. But be prepared for what you’re about to read, it may challenge the very fabric of our mental health system and even this website.
Divorce rates and depression rates soared in the mid 80’s, steadily increased, then spiked in the early 90’s, then steadily increased again. There was another phenomenon that started in the mid 80’s, spiked in the early 90’s, and otherwise steadily increased.
This phenomenon? the concept of Boundaries. This began being introduced to the world in the mid 80’s through the research mostly of Harvard and Stanford, and would later be popularized by Christian authory Henry Cloud in 1992–even though numerous publications had been written prior. In fact, in 1991, Anne Katherine, MD published a book about Boundaries, which is word for word exactly like Cloud’s, except it has no biblical references.
One has to imagine that the three are very heavily correlated. While the concept of Boundaries is theoretically, according to Cloud…supposed to enhance our relationships–i have never, ever, once seen this be the case. In fact, I have even seen Cloud use these boundaries to abuse his followers emotionally, cutting contact permanently, with his only reason: “being annoyed.” While I want to be a supporter of boundaries when they are used correctly, such as protecting yourself from violence, rape, something of this nature; i have also lived to see the enormous destruction that boundaries also cause.
While on person may feel that establishing a boundary will lead to no longer being annoyed, I guarantee you they will feel enormous guilt, and cause depression in most likely 2 different people. I don’t suggest people go head first into the really evil acts, but at the same time, maybe we’ve allowed this social construct to do more damage than good.
I also want to point out one very, very, very insightful detail: the depression rate was higher for non-Christians in 1991…when Katherine’s book was published, then soared in 1992 for Christians, when Clouds was published but only rose slightly for non Christians. This fact, more than anything, has caused me to second guess our acceptance of the concept of boundaries as a whole; not all of them are bad…but a great portion of the teaching has undeniably caused more harm than good.
Hey there @mlssufan01,
Thank you for sharing your thoughts about this subject! It is very interesting. However, I think you are making some general assumptions there that stems from a personal experience, which makes you interpret things through the scope of your own pain. It’s understandable, it’s human, but it’s important to look after answers within you on that matter. I will share a few thoughts about what you said.
I have long sought these subjects. My parents got divorced, and honestly, it wasn’t that big of a deal to me. …and I think i understand why now. But when friends assert some boundaries and shut the door, i can be devastated. why is this?
Because it’s not the same situation, not the same context, and you’re not the same person either between now and the one you were when you parents divorced. Our own emotional limits and sources of insecurity can be changing over time and overall are just different depending on the context. You could have received very well the fact that friends asserted boundaries in a healhy and loving way, and on the opposite being very depressed if it happened in a violent way (emotionally speaking). Or the absolute opposite if you were convinced that you deserved to be abandoned and treated poorly, undeserving of respect and so on.
It’s not necessarily about the events and their content - setting boundaries, divorce -, but even more about how it takes place and your own ability to process it at the time.
There was another phenomenon that started in the mid 80’s, spiked in the early 90’s, and otherwise steadily increased. This phenomenon? the concept of Boundaries.
A concept is not a phenomenon because it’s not a behavior. “Boundaries” also is not only about setting boundaries. That’s only one aspect of it.
What are the behaviors that were supposedly related to the apparition of this concept? How was it measured?
If you want to consider a theory with a kind of university outlook regarding history, you’d also need to really look at the context of the society at the time, and the evolutions of the law itself. Were there less restrictions regarding divorce? Were there more legal help to access to it? More states who improved the law? Etc. Social phenomenons are always rooted in multiple factors.
One has to imagine that the three are very heavily correlated.
There’s a thing with research, it’s that if you want to see something as being correlated, then you will always find elements to validate your idea. Of course I’m not comparing, but to give an example: that’s how we’ve scientifically justified racism and colonalism at first, or how some intellectuals deny aspects of the holocaust in a way that would appear to be justified/argumented. It’s the big difference between an inductive and deductive approach, and it’s important to recognize the bias it creates when we make general statements about humans as a consequence.
supposed to enhance our relationships–i have never, ever, once seen this be the case.
I’ve set boundaries with my dad for reasons that I won’t detail here, but even if we are still not in regular contact anymore, it has actually helped both of us to face some truths we were not ready to face, and realize that doing so together allowed us to say the most loving and beautiful things we ever said to each other. It opened a door to vulnerability. I’ve seen him as I always needed him to be, for the very first time in my life, because I conveyed my point in a loving and respectful way (yet asserted strong boundaries! → no talk together until I decide to), and because he was at a time of his life and in a mindset that allowed thim both to understand and welcome my decision with love too.
I showed the example to him that it was okay to talk about things that hurt. That it was okay to let him know that I was hurt, and for him to say that he’s fully aware of it and respect my decisions. It’s been the beginning of a healing process, one we’ve needed both for almost our entire life. It’s been helping him, finally, to invest his role of a father, and for me to initiate a process of healing from old wounds. And no, the situation was not about violence or abuse from him, but emotional abandonment regarding me and my siblings.
I have seen situations of boundaries that were needed and were the right thing to do. It allows people to acknowledge their hurt, triggers, and heal, but also to let the other person know that they might have done something wrong without being aware, or actually intentionally. If the context is made of love, mutual respect and shared intentions, then both individuals involved in the situation can easily learn from it and grow from it. If the boundaries are set in a violent/brutal way, then the process of learning can be longer and more painful, but it’s still not impossible.
But again, it’s all about how it’s done, and we can’t judge someone’s decisions because we’re not in their shoes. I’ve been on the side of a situation where I was ghosted because someone has set boundaries with me. Total silence. I’ve been crushed in my soul. It was awful. But I didn’t develop a depression because of it/it didn’t make my already existing depression worse, because I knew that time would help the wound and I’d rather focus on what I could control at the time. Though I totally accept and understand that someone else could (and would) have reacted in different ways than mine in this situation.
In fact, I have even seen Cloud use these boundaries to abuse his followers emotionally, cutting contact permanently, with his only reason: “being annoyed.”
You make a general statement about setting boundaries, then illustrate it with one specific example. Again, your point of view is understandable, but what you mention about this Cloud person doesn’t make the idea that all situations of setting boundaries are not productive or healing. It’s all about your personal perception of it and the personal ideas you develop from this experience.
We are also no one to judge someone’s personal limits. And as for any other behavior, it can be used in ways that are healthy or not. Love can be destructive or the opposite for example, or even both! As for the boundaries, it’s also in the hands of the person who set them. You give the example of this Cloud setting boundaries in a way that would be abusive. Indeed, it can be received that way by his followers. But who are we to say that “being annoyed” is not a valid reason enough for them to create some distance? And who knows what “being annoyed” actually refers to? Maybe it’s about insults and threats sent in DMs but they don’t want to disclose that publicly?
All in all, a valid reason for someone is not necessarily the same for another one, just because we’re all different and hold different stories. Saying it is a good reason or not is a judgment, and it’s not up to us to make it, but the people who are actually involved in the situation on both ends.
I also want to point out one very, very, very insightful detail: the depression rate was higher for non-Christians in 1991…when Katherine’s book was published, then soared in 1992 for Christians, when Clouds was published but only rose slightly for non Christians. This fact, more than anything, has caused me to second guess our acceptance of the concept of boundaries as a whole; not all of them are bad…but a great portion of the teaching has undeniably caused more harm than good.
Then you have to assume - and prove - that 1/ people who set boundaries have that level of insight about the concept itself and how it’s been developed through some publications, 2/ that people actually mostly live the action of setting boundaries in a way that is hurtful and not healing.
I also want to point out one very, very, very insightful detail: the depression rate was higher for non-Christians in 1991…when Katherine’s book was published, then soared in 1992 for Christians, when Clouds was published but only rose slightly for non Christians.
Divorce in itself can be a traumatic experience. It’s about grief, loss, and learning to rebuild your life in a totally different way for many people. It’s something that can affect everything in your life. Family relationships, friendships, parenthood, where we live, work, habits, ones perception of self-worth, level of income, debts, etc. It is not surprising that something so life-changing as a divorce could eventually be correlated in some way with pain and sorrow for the individuals who experience it. It’s about reviewing a life commitment. Life projects. Expectations for your future. It’s a big, big change in the life of someone. Even a divorce made with a mutual and respectful agreement can be painful. It’s not about setting boundaries in itself, it’s about experiencing loss and grief and how the separation went on both sides, how much of a support system we have during and after the process too.
not all of them are bad…but a great portion of the teaching has undeniably caused more harm than good.
I think your entire post is about the pain you’ve felt in some specific situations where people have set boundaries with you. Not about mental health in general, humans experience as a whole or even the very act of setting boundaries in itself. If you want to interprect facts like these, of this size, influence and matter, you need to do some very extended research through valid literature, question the bias in place (christianity is one in this context as it creates a specific meaning and outlook regarding something that can lead to philosophical debates), and distance yourself from your own feelings for the sake of the datas themselves, because if we only look at numeric data as such, then we can always give any interpretation behind as long as it seems to be logical or make sense to us personally.
I think your whole point isn’t really: setting boundaries do more harm than good.
I think it is: my experience of boundaries that were set with me have has created more harm than good toe. It is, once again, understandable, valid and human.
Now, a question remains: what are you going to do in order to find some closure and intentionally choose healing through the decisions you’ll make in the future? The answers are yours, to be found in your heart and what is meaningful to you. I believe you can turn any painful experience into something that will allow growth and healing to happen. But you have to decide it to be that way. There are things in life that we cannot control and are received as truly unfair on our end. How are you going to regain control and make sure to find peace with those past experiences?
while i cannot deny that i carry with myself a personal perspective–i think everyone does, my rationale here was that the most common assertion of boundaries would have been marriage…and being that i’ve never been married, i don’t actually have any misguided things there; though I may have some in the application of boundaries. that being said, I have done plenty of research regarding boundaries in marriage…and while the boundary setters always seem to be happy, there are an equal amount of people in devastation, DEPRESSION, and trauma, saying the boundaries felt like ultimatums. and again, in some cases, it is necessary…but in other cases…it’s simply an unwillingness to compromise…a rather important aspect of marriage, not only this but about 36% of boundary setters say they feel guilty for their boundaries, saying they don’t know if they made the right choice.
Your posts have a pattern.
Abandonment.
I really think you should focus on that instead.
WHY are YOU “devastated” when people shut the door?
no argument there…i couldn’t exactly tell you…but it isn’t always…i’ve been fine with people leaving before, as mentioned my parents divorced, and neither one left us. I’ve had girlfriends break up and it was amicable. I think the main issue is when friends build my trust and THEN cut me off. for example my first girlfriend fought with me for weeks about me going to church–i had never been and out of respect for my family felt i should have gone to a catholic church but she kept insisting i go to her’s, eventually i said ok, only to be cut off the very next week, being told i was using church as a way to manipulate her…even though she was the one insisting i go (and no, i was not manipulating her), in the most recent case, it had more to do with the pastor’s family getting comfortable with me, messaging me, sort of gaining my trust, and then just blindsiding me with the abandoning after 5 years.
Whether or not that means I have abandonment issues or not idk, but yes they were painful experiences.
Why do they end up cutting you off? Maybe it’s not them, maybe you’ve crossed boundaries or did something to push them away?
Friends just don’t cut people out of their lives for no reason (unless you’re like me and have BPD) and it seems to be a pattern.
My only inkling is I’m annoying, but idk how to change that really if thats the case…and if it is, then how am I annoying. I have asked. I asked the first ex before and she said i wasn’t doing anything wrong. and in the pastor’s family example…I asked if i did something to hurt anybody, to which the pastor said he didn’t feel slighted…but his story is wayyyyy more convoluted than that. anyways, a lot of this could have been avoided with a mere conversation…but that never happens.
The reason i say possibly annoying is from the pastor’s family saying im “barely tolerable.” so thats really all i ever had t go on.
Ok, think about your interactions with them. What actions do you think you did that might have annoyed them?
well we did talk online a lot…most of the time they would keep messaging me, several times a day…and i always avoided it because i get attached easily…as previously mentioned gaining my trust…and then when i finally feel comfortable i will start messaging them back, and thats when they start getting annoyed…but i generally don’t message more than once a day. but still…this is really my best guess. and if this is the case…then it feels a bit hypocritical.
So what I’m getting out of what you just said is that a whole pastor’s family kept messaging you on social media several times a day. Gained your trust then cast you aside?
not exactly the story there is wayyyyyyy more complex than that. see another post. however…yes they initially bombarded me with “love/affection/messages” and the like, i reciprocated eventually…but that story goes way deeper than that.
Wait, is this two different instances or one?
these were different cases.
Well, I think until you can figure out why people find you annoying and toxic (its seems to be a pattern and you’re first post was you trying to tell us what toxic meant, cuz obviously someone called you toxic). Your other posts all have to do with paranoia and abandonment issues.
Maybe put the focus on yourself and not others?
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